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Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Location: MA
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 3:22am
Originally posted by rbuff60

I have to reply to GH----Max you are RIGHT---THE CONSERVATIVES  have had a big day and hopefully it is just a beginning to our rights as gun owners--while it shoud have been our God given right to bear arms in the first place ----by the constitution--politics still play into the scheme of things--thank God we do not have to rely on the liberals of California to set the laws/standards for the rest of the country---
 
I agree GH you are a pessimist-----do something about it ---start something in CA instead of bitching about it..............
 
Rbuff
 

Rbuff, are you trolling again,,,, Wink

 

That’s ok, sniping is all part of the forum posting game for some and I don’t begrudge you a few moments of enjoyment, though I don’t get your comment about CA??? Sorry but that’s on the other side of the country from me and I have enough trouble surviving on my side. But maybe in your rush to swoop in and dump on me you missed that my location says MA.

 

Either way no worries, or hard feelings on my end, and feel free to lead by example any time, I am eagerly awaiting your next helpful post,,,

 

Hummm, guess trolling really does work, I bit,,, DAMN,,, LOL

 

But in all seriousness, you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet,,, Sorry that is not likely to get undone for what ever reason, and I really don’t care at this point. So how about we stay in neutral corners? Either way I promise not to waste any more of the boards space replying to sniping.

 

The End ;-)

 

GH
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 2:11pm

Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment

  • GEORGE WASHINGTON (First President)
    • "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)
  • THOMAS JEFFERSON (Author of Declaration of Independence, member Continental Congress, Governor of Virginia, Minister to France, Secretary of State, Vice President, 3rd President )
    • "On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." 12 Jun 1823 (The Complete Jefferson p.32)
    • "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Jefferson Papers, p. 334, C.J. Boyd, 1950)
    • "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." (Thomas Jefferson Papers p. 334, 1950)
    • "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Letter to William S. Smith 13 Nov 1787 (Jefferson, On Democracy p. 20, 1939; Padover, editor)
    • "The few cases wherein these things (proposed Bill of Rights) may do evil, cannot be weighed against the multitude where the want of them will do evil...I hope therefore a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government..." (letter to Madison 31 July 1788, The Papers of James Madison, Hobson & Rutland, p.11:212)
    • "I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away." (letter to Uriah Forrest, 1787, Jefferson Papers, 12:477)
    • "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." (letter to Isaac Tifany, 1819)
  • GEORGE MASON (Virginia House of Burgesses, Virginia delegate to Constitutional Convention, wrote Virginia Declaration of Rights, wrote "Objections to the Constitution", urged creation of a Bill of Rights)
    • "I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." (Jonathan Elliot, The Debates of the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, [NY: Burt Franklin,1888] p.425-6)
    • "Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised...to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia..." (In Virginia's Ratifying Convention, Elliot p.3:379-380)
    • "The militia may be here destroyed by that method which has been practiced in other parts of the world before; that is, by rendering them useless - by disarming them." (Elliot, p. 3:379-80)
    • "I consider and fear the natural propensity of rulers to oppress the people. I wish only to prevent them from doing evil." (In Virginia's Ratifying Convention, Elliot p.3:381)
  • JOHN ADAMS (Signed Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress delegate, 1st Vice President, 2nd President)
    • "Arms in the hands of citizens (may) be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..." 1788(A Defense of the Constitution of the Government of the USA, p.471)
  • JAMES MONROE (Served in Revolutionary Army, member Continental Congress, Governor of Virginia, U.S. Secretary of State, Secretary of War, 5th President)
    • "But it ought always be held prominently in view that the safety of these States and of everything dear to a free people must depend in an eminent degree on the militia." (his first Inaugural Address, 1817)
  • SAM ADAMS (Signed Declaration of Independence, organized the Sons of Liberty, participated in Boston Tea Party, Member of Continental Congress, Governor of Massachusetts)
    • "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the right of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; ...or to prevent the people from petitioning , in a peaceable and orderly manner; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions." (Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788, p86-87)
  • JAMES MADISON (Drafted Virginia Constitution, Member of Continental Congress, Virginia delegate to Constitutional Convention, named "Father of the Constitution", author of Federalist Papers, author of the Bill of Rights, Congressman from Virginia, Secretary of State, 4th President)
    • "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.. (where) ..the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (Federalist Papers #46)
    • "I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
    • "They [proposed Bill of Rights] relate 1st. to private rights....the great object in view is to limit and qualify the powers of government..." 8 June 1789 (The Papers of James Madison, Hobson & Rutland, 12:193, 204)
    • "To these (federal troops attempting to impose tyranny) would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands." (Federalist Papers #46)
  • RICHARD HENRY LEE (Signed Declaration of Independence, introduced resolution in Continental Congress to become independent, proposed Bill of Rights from beginning, author of Anti-Fed Papers, Congressman and Senator from Virginia)
    • "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." 1788 (Federal Farmer, p.169)
    • "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." 1788 (Federal Farmer)
    • "No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state... Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizens and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
  • PATRICK HENRY ('Liberty or Death' Speech, member of Continental Congress, Governor of Virginia, member Virginia convention to ratify U.S. Constitution, urged creation of Bill of Rights for Constitution )
    • "The great object is, that every man be armed.... Every one who is able may have a gun." (Elliot p.3:386)
    • "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." During Virginia Ratification Convention 1788 (Elliot p.3:45)
    • "I am not well versed in history, but I will submit to your recollection, whether liberty has been destroyed most often by the licentiousness of the people, or by the tyranny of rulers. I imagine, sir, you will find the balance on the side of tyranny." (Elliot P.3:74)
    • "My great objection to this government is, that it does not leave us the means of defending our rights, or of waging wars against tyrants." (Elliot, 3:47-48; in Virginia Ratifying Convention, before Bill of Rights)
    • "O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone..." (Elliot p.3:50-52, in Virginia Ratifying Convention demanding a guarantee of the right to bear arms.)
  • BEN FRANKLIN (member, Continental Congress, signed Declaration of Independence, attended Constitutional Convention, 1st Postmaster General)
    • "Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Respectfully Quoted, p. 201, Suzy Platt, Barnes & Noble, 1993)
  • NOAH WEBSTER (Served in Revolutionary Army, Printed dictionary; a federalist)
    • "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed...." (An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Webster1787)
    • "A people can never be deprived of their liberties, while they retain in their own hands, a power sufficient to any other power in the state." (Webster, p.42-43)
  • ALEXANDER HAMILTON (Member of Continental Congress, Aid-de-camp to General Washington, commanded forces at Yorktown, New York delegate to the Constitutional Convention, wrote Federalist Papers, 1st Secretary of Treasury for George Washington, wanted 'President for life')
    • "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped." (Federalist Papers #29)
  • TENCH COXE (friend of Madison, member of Continental Congress)
    • "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...(T)he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." (Freeman's Journal, 20 Feb 1778)
    • "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (introduction to his discussion, and support, of the 2nd Amend) "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution" Philadelphia Federal Gazette, 18 June 1789, pg.2
    • "The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, ...will form a powerful check upon the regular troops..." (Coxe, An Examination of the Constitution of the United States of America p.20-21)
  • REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMSON (member of the first Congress of the United States)
    • "The burden of the militia duty lies equally upon all persons;" in Congress, 22 Dec 1790 (Elliot, p423)
  • WILLIAM GRAYSON (Senator from Virginia in first Congress under the United States Constitution)
    • "Last Monday a string of amendments were presented to the lower house; these altogether respect personal liberty..." (in letter to Patrick Henry)
  • ZACHARIA JOHNSON (delegate to Virginia Ratifying Convention)
    • "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." (Elliot, 3:645-6)
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Posts: 47 		  Quote rbuff60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 2:14pm
My apologies I hit the CA instead of the MA
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Posts: 138 		  Quote MAX GERA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 5:45pm
Hi George,
 
I'd like to ad this to your list:
 
SUZANNA GRATIA-HUPP (Texas representative), to CHUCK SHUMMER (Senator from New York) and others during a hearing on so called assault weapons :
 
"The second amendment has nothing to do with duck hunting or target practice. It is about the right of  us down here,  to protect ourselves against  you up there"
 
Max
 
 
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 7:01pm

Ha, now I like that!

 

I am often irritated to hear discussions about the 2nd amendment that tie it to hunting rights, and sometimes even the self-defense argument gets old. Personally I am often happy just shooting a rock off the top of another rock, and to me shooting is like bowling or any other social activity, its just FUN!

 

As a teen, I spent whole weekends with bricks of 22's shooting anything I cared to haul to our backyard range. (no glass but pretty much everything else) Ice cubes could be tricky at a distance because of the lack of color, but crab apples were fun and it had nothing to do with self-defense or hunting, just pure recreation.

 

Matter of fact, I can say with 100% honesty that the vast majority of my shooting has been for no other purpose than having fun, not for hunting, not self-defense, not for protection of property or country, just a nice relaxing day plinking.

 

And odd man out that I may be, I cannot relate the gun itself to violence, its just a concept that doesn't work for me. Violence is a state of mine and a physical action, and you cannot personify that in an inanimate object. The gun has no means by which to jump off the table, load itself, crawl into your hand and force it to point toward someone, and then pull the trigger,,,

 

Lacking guns, people will find any other number of ways to do harm to each other, so how does the gun become the demonized implement of destruction? Sorry its an argument that seems better suited to the weak-minded than any thinking person.

 

But then what do I know, as to me an M-16 is not an ugly gun, its not pretty like a Browning A-Bold Medallion or a Colt SAA, but its ok. But Blunderbuss, now thats an ugly gun,,, Or maybe something like this,,,

 
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Posts: 435 		  Quote Gerry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 12:38am
GH
Never saw a photo like that. Is that an Automag from the ,"Wild Wild West" series?
 
Gerry
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 12:24pm

Hi Gerry,

 

No that’s actually the latest Boston PD issue side arm.

 

The designers claim it has the reliability of a revolver and the capacity of a Hi-Cap semiauto.

 

We need it to help deal with the rampant drug and gang crime. As it turns out, having some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country resulted in the bad guys running amuck and dead bodies piling up in the streets,,,

 

We have had gangs march on to busses and shoot people in front of a crowd, we have had kids dragged off their bikes right in front of police and shot multiple times, we have had stray bullets from gunfire hit people all over the city, and today they literally found a body just lying there at a street corner and no one gave it a second look.

 

The amount of firearms used by criminals is so high, they installed a system of microphones around the city to and hooked them to a computer to listen for the gunfire and then to dispatch police to the exact location!

 

So the thought is that this new pistol will help police better deal with the current situation, by scaring the hell out of the bad guys. If one look down the Bbl doesn’t do it, all they have to do is pop the breaktop and eject all the brass, seeing that many shells hit the ground at once is sure to cause the bad guys to piss their pants,,, The only down side is that the speed loaders are so big you have to carry them crisscrossed across your chest,,, But I guess that just adds to the visual effect,,, LOL

 

Well the stuff about Boston crime and the microphone system were real,,, LOL

 

GH
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Posts: 340 		  Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 6:44pm
LOL Great story George !
 
Thanks for the warning. Wink
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Posts: 300 		  Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 9:22pm
Happy almost 4th of July to you my friend from the other side of the pond!
 
Oh sorry, almost forgot thats our holiday,,, LOL
 
Any new FAL's you care to brag about? Or any other new toys for the matter???
 
Always love seeing your toys, especially the .308 stuff as there is something about a full-auto .308 that is just damn impressive!
 
All well there???
 
GH
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Posts: 340 		  Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2010 at 9:28am
Hi George,
 
No worries about your 4th of July, we have 21st of July as our National holiday...and 11th of July as the Flemish holiday...Clap
 
No new Fals found lately, just a Franchi shotgun came to the collection.
 
Spas 15, semi and pump for a change...
 
 
 
Everything is fine overhere, just damn hot, 34° now. That is Celcius! about 93° FarenheissLOL
 
Oh, and to stay on topic, we're kinda used to the gunlaws you might expect to come...
Yes we still have the right to own weapons, and then come the yes but's...
need to register them, apply for permits, pay taxes, etc.
You are dead on to your above posts George!
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